to discuss christian marketing i'm joined by human denning in london he is director of marketing and communications at the u.n. doing marketing consultancy and in columbus we go to philip ross he's a pastor and author and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger all right gentleman cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want if i can go to you philip first. christianity is a message everyone would agree with that but are there wrong ways to deliver that message and i'm talking more specifically in this program business because christianity as a business is quite profitable profitable how ethical is that in your mind. peter first of all thanks for hosting this program and allowing us to talk about jesus on this venue i do appreciate it and pray that it would be useful to him. first of all the gospel has always been marketed the word in the bible is published

and so the gospel is to be published but there are several difficulties with it you said that christianity is basically a message and that's half true message is part of it but it's also a person and the message doesn't come without the person and so they need to be kept together the message and the person so that the message doesn't become simply an abstract idea devoid of person ok but i mean if you think is the message is being advertised with the person in mind i mean jesus jeans jesus pills and other things that i will mention on this program doesn't seem to have much connection with a the message and the person. you know you're absolutely right there's lots of that going out there christian marketing is a huge business lots of people are making money at it. then whether or not it's immoral or not it's a lot of it is how it how it's being done and why it's being done and such.

but it is often done poorly one of the things that happens is that when we believe that the gospel is a message that we have to sell we begin to water it down to make it appealing to the buyer because otherwise the buyers won't want it and there's more to the gospel than simply an appealing message of what jesus can do for me ok you know if in london if i go to you there's also the idea of service ok you know if i go to you in london i mean in researching this program i came across a number of references that the historic jesus jesus christ first for some in many ways a great c.e.o. . an interesting comment well how do you feel about that. well that's that's not a title i would use ok but there's a i think i think i need to clarify or expand upon we talk about the marketing of jesus christ and my friend earlier on talked about publishing the gospel. well

let's define what marketing marketing is in my definition of marketing and marketing specialist as you know my definition of marketing is that we must promote and present jesus christ to the world as lord and savior so it's the message and the person as all are to be honest as been established but what we're doing is presenting jesus in the way that the bible bible presents him the bubble presents him as being lord we must tell that to the world present him as being the only savior for the world for mankind the bible present him as the healer as the great physician the bab present him as a god of love and so many other things what we're doing in marketing of jesus christ is presenting jesus in this way in other words the viable way so whichever means we do it through whether it's a website television literature stand in a street corner talking to people at work in the office or anywhere else

communicating the message it's all about presenting jesus in the way the bible presents him yes but also i mean it let's be fair it's a business to i mean you have to have a business model and i am not casting any aspersions on your work not whatsoever but you know in telling this message and the the ideas associated with this person at the center of this religion you do have to have a business plan don't you. well yes and the and then of course there's different of the people in the world they're the genuine genuine christians who want to present and from what jesus christ correctly and there are those who want to make money and therefore they see marketing as a means by which they can persuade people to buy their products and you listed a few already but there's many others as we know they want people to buy their products because they want to make money so their motivation isn't to win souls or to change their lives or to cause others to come to jesus as their lord and savior but to profit that's where i draw the line with those type of people ok philip you

want to jump in there go right ahead. and that's exactly right part of the deal is that you know it's not so much the church is a business i suppose you can use that model because there are certain business principles that you have to use so that the institution doesn't go bankrupt but a better model might be a nonprofit business where the idea of the bottom line is not making money but the bottom line is representing jesus christ and drawing people to him and providing services in his name and on his behalf and that's not always a profit making opportunity when you're focused on money as the bottom line that begins to distort all kinds of other things up and down the line in the business so we need to keep jesus christ at the core he's the bottom line not the money ok film you know that's an interesting thing that you say ok go ahead you're going to go

ahead but it seems to me that the whole idea of christianity the way it is sold and expression in the west would change radical you and go ahead if you take the capitalism out of it go ahead. yes that is the word that we just been using again the word be in business i do not see the church as a business of course some do. but if you look at the book of acts if you look at the church how it all started and what they were taught all their priests or their behavior their conduct themselves as a body of believers business wasn't part of it of course they organize themselves in various ways and that's that's that's clear but it was not a business they didn't have a business plan with goals and targets cash full forecasts and all this the church is the body of believers who believe in the lord jesus christ and they all their themselves in such a way that they can live in fellowship also to be able to win others and in doing so it means go and out all the world as you said and preach the gospel we organize

ourselves to do that we communicate the message is over a key but to me it's not business but both you gentlemen ok we're talking about and i agree with you i mean but your street you were all speaking here right now at this point in the program in a very idealized way we all know that that's not how it's being done i mean look at these televangelists and i go through all of the names of the last two decades in the united states a disgrace themselves and really hurt. the the faith of many people that they were preaching to but if they would be treated people like customers not is believe yours and they corrupt the message and that's why televangelist particular united states have a very a lot of people have a very low opinion of them go ahead philip i mean it's not about the real world gentlemen not how it should be. the real issue that you're raising is is the issue of the false gospel or misunderstanding christianity and in promoting that as if it were the gospel and this is not a problem that's new to modernity or new to history at all this this problem was

very alive and well in the new testament churches you know one of the things about the vandalism. model that we usually think of as we think when we send out a vangelis we usually think that well you know we get a party together and we have a dinner and we pray over these evangelists and we send them out to save souls that's not exactly how it was done in the new testament in the new testament christians and jews at that time were fleeing the destruction of rome and as they fled they they fled out and as they fled they they landed in various kinds of places and people said well what happened here what was going on and they said well let me tell you about this story that was a vandalism that was a vandalism on the move that was god planning that angelus. like that any power point presentations right. know that you know they're also they all know there's a word me available you know where you're really i would like to get money for it

ok you can go ahead you want to comment i understand your eight yeah yeah before the persecution which caused the christians to flee to different parts in so doing they of course spread the gospel but before that they were actually go in and talking to people there were there were times when we just read it very clear in the early part of the book of acts where they would go from house to house and breaking the bread in the prior's and the churches growing to go to the temple and they would preach all this was happening before any persecution took place so the commission upon the believe is to do that whether or not there is persecution. well look you want to go and jump in there you're right but i'm going to point you just made a while ago about the televangelist that's all true highly documented in the media and the rest so we know that people it's what i was talking about earlier about people's motivation the motivation might not be as descriptive says in terms of soul when he that when a soul is why isn't the soul if a person is precious and they want to win them to jesus it might be fame it might

be popularity large congregations meaning more offerings meaning more money and more fame they go on television to get on newspapers and so what they want to be a media personality that might be the motivation but that's not to say that's the correct way to go you know i want if you think you think that there have been supported. what do you think it is that happened more times than not in the united states now with these mega churches and their television programs and and i mean i'll tell you it turns a lot of people off and i'm one of them i mean thing that i just can't believe these are people of faith this is a phone number on the bottom all of the time i mean send us monies and this money. one of the interesting things about christianity is that most christians think that most christians are wrong about most things most of the time. because there's such a poor rich for a few denominations and perspectives and this and that and the other and to sort it

out is incredibly difficult hardly anybody is willing to take the time but another interesting thing happens in the midst of our world when you get out on the street and you begin talking about the bible or christianity to the to the layman or the person on the street almost everybody to a person thinks that they know already that by gentlemen said what god was about let me. right now we're going to. we're going to go to a short break and we'll continue our discussion on the selling of jesus state that are. taking. twenty years ago just country. to some of the.

simplest spots have been curious to teach began the church. where did it take the. last time the close of team was in the cool down reach of the flock from all over the world to have a few centimeters to their self-confidence lead this time our team goes to the i would reach. for the girls who are still gets people like to her. current try like to save its culture percolates are protected in the first official nature. of the region. or should close up on our. he. says.

welcome back across talk i hear a lot about tree mind you were talking about christianity in the twenty first century. and a slim. but before let's see what religion means to russians. everything for sale that is what our commercialized culture accepts but debates fleer when it comes to marketing the message of jesus christ many claim it devalues faith and their religion itself what does it matter in today's society the russian public opinion research center all such as what religion means to them thirty percent of the respondents consider it as national tradition the faith of their ancestors twenty six percent see religion as polling moral values twenty one percent think it to be part of world culture and another seventeen percent regard religion as they a link to god with the important role religion has in society marketing

christianity looks like a beneficial idea but can it be justified. ok now we're joined by reverend david smith in sydney he's a parish priest welcome to the program we were in the first part of the program we were talking about the commodification of christianity and how its message is spread through the world and and we've been focusing on how it's been commercialized here so david if i could ask you what where do you draw the line in trying to get the message of the gospel out i mean i mentioned earlier in the program jesus jeans jesus pills eccentrics cetera i mean where do you draw the line because i mean i know that we are there and young people have different needs and interests and whatnot and christianity wants to be up with the times to be able to be. deal with modernity but where do you draw the line. i think it was. really telling the gospel is to look also in the language of the day without

importing the valleys and that's often a very hard line to draw and i think we do always run the risk of the why be present things on the cutting the actual truth we're trying to present. i think we've got a basic problem in terms of trying to use marketing ploys because marketing is always trying to scratch where people are itching and i think the christian gospel doesn't do that i mean i love the paper i'm a way they're reaching what they want is more money a better sex lies a more successful business and i think the christian gospel offers them any of those things you know out of mind so the think that challenges them. these techniques that the gospel clear rather than the try and produce a product that just appeals to what people want it's very interesting if i can feel if i can go to you i mean i get in researching this program i was really astounded and i must admit even discussed it and how. how to build a christian business and and i really entered changeable using consumer in soul you

know getting more souls and then we did exactly to a consumer has been. that's been very much a part of the church growth movement which was the application of business principles to church growth that started some twenty years ago or more one of the things that the apostle paul talks about in his letter to the corinthians is that the gospel is actually foolishness to the world and so when we begin peeling to the world through marketing we are making the gospel appear foolish and so the more successful that effort is the more foolish the actual gospel. appears in people's eyes and that's an issue that really needs to be dealt with i don't have any idea how to deal with it but there it is you and how do you deal with that i think. is that an issue that you consider. well we talk about markets and the market and

markets employees and all of that but really the best marketing. strategy for the church is what is laid down in scripture if we just look at the record of the early church and hold the because jesus before he left he told us what to do go into all the world and preach the gospel that's what we do but behind that in terms of how do we then do that how do we then can we communicate the message we look at the record of what the apostles and the early church did and really the best marketing strategy is their own individual lives that's what matters and we ought to represent jesus christ as he is so we talk about god is a god of love we must therefore show love you know walk in the what talk in the people we talk about god is peace peace we interact with people and what we do we must have a peaceful nature god is merciful must demonstrate that god is right just god is holy we must demonstrate wholeness in our lives you know but you know it's i think

. that's exactly right ok but i think it's very interesting here is that you know we've had these people talk about a christian lifestyle and that he actually costs a lot of money and again looking at all of these christian items that you can buy you're going to have a lot of money out there trying to you david in sydney i mean you know for thinking more along the lines of evangelicals maybe like in the united states i mean get your jesus jacket jesus shoes jesus had and go to the jesus disco and you know and all of this and i mean and even for a middle class family if you want to get along in that kind of lifestyle maybe you're in a in a small town you know i mean it's very oppressive because again it gets down to dollars and cents. yeah i find it hard to take that also out of a very seriously i think. you know in terms of the integrity. of present the goal of good marketing i think should be that mike i may say it's clearly not to make a more attractive to the mass market. but philip how do you do that i mean.

yes go ahead. one of the difficulties with the current marketing model is that most folks who are marketing christianity assume that the people in the pews are the market so we've got to sell the gospel to the people in the pews but if you look at the bible there was a purchase that's a marketing kind of thing that's quite different the purchase in christianity is that jesus christ purchased his people with his blood on the cross so we are to appeal to him he's the customer he's buying the people in a sense if you want to look at it like that not the people in the pews buying him he's buying the people and so we need to not appeal to the people in what they want we need to peel to the lord and what he wants. you want to jump in there i mean i mean but they again i think we're all speaking in very ideal types because we all know that this is not happening and how the message of christ of the holy bible is

being portrayed all over the place i mean when these even jail calls come over from the united states to russia and say oh no not these people who are not here go back home because they're used to it back there ok but here people look at religion in a very different way it's very solemn and it's very it's very much respected i mean some of the things that people wear like i said jesus jeans for example that would almost be blasphemy here i mean lisa for an average person i mean again a is it's a it's the commodification culture is is hijacking as it were for entertainment personal purposes for money. for its longevity what do you and how do you think about that i mean i mean it's culture is diluting the message more and more. well i agree with that a lot of people are doing these things for personal gain and profit and all of that and i wouldn't buy jesus jeans or jesus pills and and all the rest i mean i would

buy a jeans but you put jesus on it it's like making a mockery of the gospel as far as i'm concerned so i wouldn't be interested in the products that should not be part of the gospels message while unfortunate people are in the business if you like of the church and of christianity for a variety of reasons and a lot of times it's to make money but that's not to say that that's the general impression because we see it through the media these two live television evangelists and so on and we open the newspapers or hear one radio or t.v. of these things happen in our might think of that's how that which is generally in the church but it's not that's just a small percentage of the church actually the true church of jesus christ is doing what the bible says in terms of living a life as consecrated as holy as they can and live for jesus as best they can and telling others which is a sense of what the gospel is david what do you do you do you tell your parishioners when you say when we see these i televangelists in one night do you tell your parishioners this is not the truth faith or do you say that they don't

let them do what they want to do in a very relativistic way that's how they worship. how do you deal with that i think i think the persians are pretty savvy actually this particular issue but i do think it's hard to be too black and white about this i mean as i said before the issue is trying to preach the gospel in the language of the day without importing the values of the day and i think all of us are very wary rightly so about allowing the valleys of the day to take over but that the other dangers are equally varial that we end up speaking some secret language you know going in latin or something in order to preserve the truth and we do have to be relevant and this is rock and so you know with young people i must of my work is with young people and i can understand why you know if young people aware of the names they hear as on their clothing you want to say well hey jesus is the sort of guy who should be you here or the sort of person you are spying more to be like that like and hence to have him on you cloud into it makes sense at that level i mean i'm not sure the micro

level a work that out is not a sort of thing we do over here but i can see the point of wanting to be relevant at that level and it's a fine line i think appoints fill a party you know where is the fine line in your mind you know with the issues right ahead. david david said talked about making the gospel relevant to the world actually i would turn that around as i think we need to make the world. is the is is the stake you know i understand that but the gospel is what stable and that's the model that's the that's where we hang our hats if you will so it's not a matter of making the gospel relevant when we try to do that we begin changing the gospel to suit the needs or to relieve the desires of the people we're talking to rather than trying to help the people be who jesus christ wants them to be you know i've been writing about this for probably twenty years it's

a problem and i really don't know what to do with it part of the problem is that the more successful the marketers are success builds money and power well i don't have money and power in my church just didn't have money and power so i don't really know how to deal with it but it would be great to figure out some way we're well beyond bringing some sort of together although at some point in history hopefully something like that can happen and the churches can address some of these things in the meantime i guess we just keep doing the best we can you know i'm going to. well i just want to clarify something about the word marketing as a marketeer when i talk to customers clients on the help them with their marketing strategies i am helping them to tailor make their products and services to the needs of the customer ok you know i'm afraid i'm going to have a big jump in here that gentlemen gentlemen we've lost have come to the end of the program here many thanks to my guest today in london columbus and sydney and thanks

to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk. more news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world. giant corporations are.

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a medical took a similar hard line or just said but it will not conditionally buy out the bones of trying to be there as a methods. and of course to resolve the debt ceiling negotiations in the us is delayed while republicans think enough support to get the cost and as they have going continues the us china relations taken up with beijing freezing patients who washington's inability to agree on a plan has america's largest creditor china could be left holding the next cheese day when the u.s. could potentially default on its. that's the headlines up next he takes you to a corner of the baltics that funds the polls two decades talking itself yet the legacy. is the capital of lithuania the city changed hands many times during the twentieth century after world war one the poles were in charge then during the second world

war nazi germany took control when the soviet army drove the fascists out of the baltics the city became lithuania's competent once again and the country joined the soviet union where they like saying in russia we liberated the lithuanian people from math in germany it's true that i added the following yes you did but you didn't bother to leave afterwards. when perestroika go to underway in the late one nine hundred eighty s. it was one of the first soviet republics to demand independence. this far as we're concerned phone use is the capital notes moscow that's the way it's has been armed will it be in the future. the confrontation between the soviet empire is weakening center of the rebellious baltic republic resulted in street clashes. fourteen people were crushed by tanks hundreds were. missed that at the time came to hold to one might.